Before I get to the parts about evolution, I'd like to touch base on some of the things that were said regarding the bible.
JayBird wrote: "The Bible and the accounts within are Historical, Scientific, and Archaeological. Real people in Real places in Real history..."
Responce: I dont' even know where to begin. Historical? No, not even close. Abraham, Moses, Lot, Eve, Adam? There is absolutely not a shred of evidence to show that any of these people existed. There is an extremely small amount of evidence to suggest that Jesus himself existed. Just because it takes place in a real land, like Jerusalem, doesn't make it true. Harry Potter takes place in Scotland, that doesn't make it real.
What amazes me is the fact that even biblical theologicans are willing to admit that nearly all of the bible is probably not actually literal truth (the old testament). They are still Christians, they simply accept the book as alegorical word of God. There's no reason why you must take it as literal. And as for Archaeological and scientific? Have you ever met a scientist!? Please, the bible claims that pi is equal to 3 and that all life popped magically out of nowhere 6000 years ago. Education is a blessing truly.
JayBaird wrote: God making robots and forcing them to love Him, isn't true love is it?...
Responce: What is God... just bored and lonely? Why would an all powerful, all knowing, all present being who (supposedly) exists outside of his own creation (including emotions) create humans because he wanted them to love him. Most of all, why does he only want our love? Shouldn't the bears love God too?
This is yet another example of the fact that Christians are people who cannot grow up. They were children with parents who loved them and protected them and made them never feel alone. Now that they are adults, they long to have that feeling again, so they make up a magic invisible friend so that they don't have to face the harsh reality of the universe. Being a Christian is just an excuse not to grow up. Why grow up and face reality and responciblity when you can just make yourself feel good by thinking that a magical being was looking out for you.
Circular logic strikes again. God created emotions, such as love, jealiousy and lonliness... yet for some reason, against the fact that he created these emotions, he is subject to these emotions. Yet again, Christians try and make God out be a human being with human emotions.
JayBird wrote: That is what Gamaliel thought in Acts 5:34-39: (in responce to me saying that Christianity was a dying religion and would one day be a thing of the past)
"I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God".
That was 2000 years ago...
Responce: Of all the religions in the world that you could possibly belief, you just by chance believe in Christianity. If you had been born to be believe in Jupiter, you might be saying the same thing about a belief in him. Christianity will fall, it's slipping little by little every day around the world. To be honest (and unfortunatley), the one religion that is growing is Islam. And no, that's not a good thing at all. This whole thing makes me think about a response Richard Dawkins gave once.
So now onto Bobby. First of all, he thinks that DNA is proof of god. He states "Let’s talk about DNA. Like a computer disk, DNA has no intelligence. The complex, purposeful codes of this “master program” could only have originated outside itself. In the case of a computer program, the original codes were put there by an intelligent being, a programmer. Likewise, for DNA, it seems clear that intelligence must have come first, before the existence of DNA."
Okay, first of all, there is no intelligence needed. For example, sulfuric acid is produced when sulfur, oxygen and water make contact. Sulfuric acid is produced by mixing all three without divine intervention. No intelligence needed.
The fact that you think DNA is proof of God show's how inconceivably ignorant you are when it comes to the theory of evolution. I suggest reading Richard Dawkins' "The Ancestor's Tale" (heck, I'll even direct you to the audio book for free online). I can be sure by the stupid comments you make that you have not even a rudimentary understanding of evolution by means of natural selection. Educate yourself please. If your God is true, it won't fuck with your faith. But unfortunately I'm sure you realize that it will fuck with your faith, and that might make your life less than comfortable. And in the end that's the American dream, right? Comfort, no matter what!
DNA is the absolute proof of evolution. Period.
Okay, so Bobby also goes on to give me a bunch of bullshit quotes from the following people; I.L. Cohen (creationist), "Chemist" Dr. Grebe (creationist who founded creation research society), and even calls Michael Denton an evolutionist, which he isn't, he's a supporter of Intelligent Design (which is creationism in a neat hat). He also brings up creationist Sir Fred Hoyle, who never accepted that the universe is expanding, which is something else we have librarians of books of documented proof on.
Bobby even falls back to the worst argument ever, The Boeing 747 arguement (which I'll address below). The problem with bobby is that he goes so far as to call god the "programmer" which totally undermines his belief. He refuses to belief that life can form naturally, but prefers to think that magic is how it happens. That's exactly what it is. Magic. He believes that God just always existed for no good reason, magically popped things into existence ... and then eventually decided to give things a more natural look I suppose. It's childish. It's silly. It's sad.
I'm not going to argue with you on this because you and I will never see eye to eye for two reason. We both have up walls. I once had faith in God and Jesus, but my reason mind got the best of me, and now today I allow evidence and proof to guide me to what is closest to truth. For example, I have several walls that stop me from becoming a Christian. If you want me to become a Christian, you're going to have to break down some walls. First, you must get around my extensive knowledge of world faith and most specifically Christianity. Second you must get around my knowledge of science, evolution, physics, and astronomy. Although I do profess myself to be very well versed in world religion, I will admit that I am not an expert on science, because not even Einstein was an expert. There is most certainly stuff I don't know in science, but I am always learning. You must also break down my wall of human experience of multiple cultures. There are no atheists in foxholes but there certainly are Christians. The problem with Christianity is that it teaches you to accept anything a old books says without proof and for no good reason. It teaches you to accept ignorance.
For me to break down you, I need only brake down one wall. Unfortunately it is the greatest wall of all: brainwashing. You've been brainwashed to accept anything Christian, no matter what. You have been taught to accept the Bible no matter what. Why? Because it's pretty, bubbly, and gives you a warm feeling inside... but that doesn't mean it's true.
I do envy you Bobby. Ignorance is bliss. You live in fantasy world where everywhere is made easy. Things are either good and of God or bad and of the Devil. The world is only 6000 years old. There's only one book to read, instead of libraries of hypothesis and theories. Your happy because no matter how much this life might suck, you think a magical one is gonna come later, and for those people who did you wrong, only bad things will come.
However it's not perfect. You've only got one life and you lose it to childlike magical belief. When you find out that a member of your family is gay, instead of accepting that it's simply a variant in nature and is a completely healthy lifestyle, you see it as sin. If you ever horribly lose one of your children in a car accident, you'll think it's part of God's plan, instead of the truth which is that random shit happens and you have no control over what other people do. And when you find out that your wife has an addiction to online pornography, instead of accepting that she's having psychological issues that can dealt with through a professional, you turn to prayer, which solves nothing.
If I haven't totally pissed you off already, please continue. You bring up the Boeing 747 argument and I know why. Because it's sounds good. It's been answered again and again and again but you creationists never give up on a dead idea. You see, when you say to a person, "supposing the first cell originated by chance is like believing “a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.” It perks up some ears, and people remember such a little ditty. But unfortunately for you, there is an answer. But no, it's not all butterflies and unicorns. And even more unfortunately people today with their short attention spans and one-liners love to stick to something short and simple. It comes up again and again not because it hasn't been answered, but because every 10 years there is another generation of people to fool with it.
It's so easy to just think, God created the world in 7 days, humanity with two people, and if you belief Jesus is the son of God, you'll get another life that's paradise after you die. Considerably easier than reading the libraries of books on philosophy and science that turn out truer answers.
Richard Dawkins once again explains the Boeing 747 argument as well as expands on evolution a bit. Now can we please put this one in the ground?
By now, I'm sure I'm simply speaking to the choir, as I'm sure most creationist have shut off their computers and decided to watch something on PAX-TV. If your still here, the video below do a great job expanding on my beliefs. It's such a good video, I've just had to add it to my sidebar.
Now there may be some apologists out there who might say, "Oh, your version of truth is science and Bobby's version of truth is Christianity. What makes yours more truer than his?" Well, I could go on, but since people do love on-liners, here's a go at one. Bobby's faith in Christianity will only allow him to marvel at the moon from a far, while my embracing of science will get to me the moon itself.
Final Thought: In short, Bobby and JayBird. I do not believe that you are stupid or evil or anything like that. I believe that you are uneducated, misinformed, brainwashed, and close minded. The tree of knowledge contains fruits most sweet, but they come at a cost. You, and so many others, are stuck in the garden of ignorance, while I, and so many others, are in the world of harsh reality. And I wouldn't go back to being ignorant for all the bliss in the world.
9 comments:
Ok........No religious G-ds out there. But do you leave open the door for the possibility of a creative force that created the universe as we see it?
I don't believe in anything supernatural... mainly because if it were real, it wouldn't be super natural, it'd just be natural. For example, if we developed a machine that could view ghosts and prove they are real, ghosts would not be supernatural, they'd just be natural.
So if there was a creative force that created the universe, it's completely natural. To me the closest thing to god I believe in is in the god of Einstein, as in the laws of the universe.
First, I must begin by informing you that you do not have even a basic understanding of the Bible. You say it doesn't exist, because you've never cared to look.
"Historical? No, not even close. Abraham, Moses, Lot, Eve, Adam? There is absolutely not a shred of evidence to show that any of these people existed."
Not what I was referring to, however, yes there is. The Bible, (the most accurate, reliable piece of ancient writing that exists), mentions them. As does other Jewish and ancient writings speak of them also.
Do you believe that Socrates existed?
Almost all of the locations that the Bible describes are still there, and show masses of archaeological evidence...what do you do with that?
Also the evidence of Jesus Christ is far more than you would care to admit. No true historian, Christian or not would deny that a man named Jesus lived in Palestine 2000 years ago and had a large following.
"And as for Archaeological and scientific? Have you ever met a scientist!? Please, the bible claims that pi is equal to 3"
Yes, the Bible calls pi 3. Would you correct this by valuing pi 3.14 or 3.14159?
I'm sorry, than you would also be wrong, because pi contain an infinite number of decimal digits. You would be doing exactly what you blame the Bible does...approximating numbers.
The fact is this, 3000 years before anyone even thought of discovering pi, the Bible claimed its truth...Is this evidence?
"and that all life popped magically out of nowhere 6000 years ago."
Evolution: life magically popped up 6,000,000,000 years ago, uhhh?
"If you had been born to be believe in Jupiter, you might be saying the same thing about a belief in him."
Negative, Jupiter never claimed to die and raise again for the sin of mankind, Nor did the God of islam.
"Christianity will fall, it's slipping little by little every day around the world."
Negative, 10,000 new people give their lives to Christ everyday in China alone...don't limit yourself to America...
Real people in real Places, in real History.
Overwhelming evidence if you look, and it doesn't go away...you can only believe it or ignore it.
Don't mock what you don't understand...
I can give you scores of people who do not think that Jesus every really existed. I can give you a heaping pile more who will say it's possible he didn't even exist.
The fact that you think that evolution = magic shows that you do not understand it.
Socrates wrote things. He most likely did exist. Jesus didn't write anything, and most of all, the people who wrote about him, waited until 40 to 100 years after his death to pen anything down.
And even if I meet you halfway and say that he did exist, I cannot believe that a man with such a huge following who was performing miracles would only be written about in the bible alone. There is no concrete writings on Jesus outside the bible, and if he really did the things that the bible says that he did, I would think somebody might write about. In fact, I would expect that hundreds of people would write about it actually.
The world is not black and white. People do not either believe or ignore the bible. In truth, it is those who have read the bible thoroughly and understand it well that actually end up rejecting it because of the simple fact that it is bullshit. It disgustingly violent, bigoted, and full of errors both outside and inside it's own canon. Which is exactly what you would expect from a book of fairy tales written 2000 to 3000 years ago. I reject faith because I know faith.
Jupiter did not claim to die and raise again for the sins of mankind. But another God did, and his name was Horus. He was the Egyptian god of the sun and his story is so close to that of Jesus it's mind boggling.
View this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwzDFvqfcdc
Either you accept it or you ignore it.
"I can give you scores of people who do not think that Jesus every really existed."
Many during and near the time of His existence wrote of Him and the effects He had on others.
Do you have evidence of people during the time of His existence writing that He didn't exist?
"Socrates wrote things. He most likely did exist Jesus didn't write anything."
Negative! Socrates never wrote anything...Why would you believe in someone who never wrote anything?! Hmmmm.....
"and most of all, the people who wrote about him, waited until 40 to 100 years after his death to pen anything down."
Negative again, the book of James for instance was written before 49 A.D. (Prior to the Jerusalem Council in 50 A.D.)this is about 17 after the Death and Resurrection of Christ and also written by His own step-brother.
"But another God did, and his name was Horus."
But unfortunately many O.T. Prophecies of Jesus predate that of Horus.
"if he really did the things that the bible says that he did, I would think somebody might write about."
They did. They did it in the most accurate, reliable piece of ancient writings in history. The Bible...Historical, Archaeological, and Scientifically accurate.
Everyone of your claims are arguments from silence. Not very effective...
Christianity still surviving... especially under persecution.
it won't go away...
The Bible, (the most accurate, reliable piece of ancient writing that exists)(Jaybird)
Wow. Just the fact that you would make this statement makes you so irrelevant. At least Come to the table with at some credible discussion, and then maybe some people will want to hear what your ideas on faith are. Making statements like this just alienate people. So much for sharing your idea of G-d.
"No true historian, Christian or not would deny that a man named Jesus lived in Palestine 2000 years ago and had a large following."
I may be crazy, but wasn't the name "Jesus" a mistranslation?...
The ignorance of some people, really!? Oh well.
Anyway, I loved the post! I really liked that last video of Dawkins discussing his beleifes and what not... I've never seen that one before, if I had, I am sure it would have been mined for "richard dawkins clips of the Week"
"Wow. Just the fact that you would make this statement makes you so irrelevant. At least Come to the table with at some credible discussion, and then maybe some people will want to hear what your ideas on faith are."
I'm discussing the topic at hand. I know, its a big and uncommon claim. If you would like to, we can also discuss why the Bible is so accurate when compared to other ancient documents.
You say my statement makes me irrelevant? That statement tells me you already have presuppositions about the Bible's accuracy. Where have my claims failed so far?
What happened to pi?
www.1jaybird.blogspot.com
"I may be crazy, but wasn't the name "Jesus" a mistranslation?...
The ignorance of some people, really!? Oh well."
Apparently I'm not the ignorant one...
Jesus is the English translation of the Greek name "Iesous" (the N.T. was written in Greek)or the Hebrew name "Yehoshua". Since we read the Bible in English the English translation of His name is there...In other languages you will see another name translation, Amazing...
JayBird is right !
No historian worth his salt would deny Jesus exists, or ever did exist.
I'm sure of this myself. I have irrefutable proof.....he lives down the street from me and mows lawns, in the summer, does construction the rest of the year :-)
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